Royalite

In an effort to stimulate debate and discussion on the forums, I'd like to post about a class/element and have a discussion about the finer points of that class/element.

Some questions to answer:
How is the class/element in pvp?
Which how would the minors affect the playing of this class/element?
How is a class/element sin in pve?
What are the pros/cons of a class/element?

Water Sin
Short Summary of Spells
Frostbolt - decrease movement speed
DragonTail - stop enemies from moving
IceBlast - a trap
Rainfall - mana gain

I recently had the pleasure of making a water sin and leveling her up to 47.  I have also been playing with her in a few TQs, quests and pvping.  I picked this class originally b/c the spells books were dirt cheap.  I think Jen and I buying them up have raised the prices a bit.  In pve, the Rainfall is an awesome boost of mana.  However, this spell us not an attack spell on an enemy.  Unless someone else have been able to do the mana drain, my sin just gains mana and the enemy is not drained of mana at all.  If this spell did what it said then zapping your foes mana would be awesome in pvp, but it is just a nice mana boost for when your in pot cool down.  

Dragontail is nice by holding the foe in place, however, range attacks still hit. Dragontail is great for pve and fighting bosses.  The skill also increases in the time in keep an enemy in place.  I see this skill being great in Bayer when fighting with your allies to stop and kill another player but one vs one, the daze is better.  

The IceBlast trap is ok.  I need to work on my use of traps in pvp but in the more predictable AI mobs the traps do very nice damage.

Frostbolt is a great spell but I wish it would act more like a freeze than slow down the movement.  Correct me if I am wrong but the website says the spell when level just increases the damage but not the % of movement decrease.  I'd like to see the % increase over the damage.

Overall I think this class would be great as a support in an attack but one vs one I don't see it coming up on top against other equally equipped and level classes/element.

However, I am planing on going metal minor to have the daze stun.  I am not knowledgeable about the other sin elements but I have the scroll already so why not?

I think I will be able to better assess the sin at higher levels and I would love to fight with her in Bayer.  I am getting sick of healing

Anyway please feel free to bring up another class/element or comment on another post!

JenLyn

I agree with you on the pvp thing. I don't think they will be very strong in pvp bc the skills are not that strong. Basically, you're good as a leveling partner. LOL I've tried pvp a few times and I just feel weak with this char. Other than that I love this char. I use the mana drain along with my mana pot since at lvl 56 the pot no longer regens my mana 100% but with Rainfall and a mana pot if fills me up. The reason I picked water for my new sin is bc I run out of mana so fast on Jen. So I just wanted to experiment. I also chose metal as a minor but have yet to find a scroll. It's fun to go back and re-visit a class you have already played and experiment with different elements. By far my favorite class is assassin. I have a lvl 51 wiz, lvl 56 pal, tried a priest but was bored. So I can safely say assassin is my favorite to play. I hope you enjoy playing assassin as much as I do. Good Luck with her.

[ Last edited by  JenLyn at 6-9-2008 13:41 ]

Royalite

I would love to hear about your assessment of the Wood Assassin.

JenLyn

I'd like to try wood. Actually, kwan in my guild is wood. I'll ask him about it. He seems to like it.

glowpole

Yea i'll mention to kwan see if i can get him to post info about but I guess I'll post a bit on my sin as well then


Some questions to answer:
How is the class/element in pvp?
Which how would the minors affect the playing of this class/element?
How is a class/element sin in pve?
What are the pros/cons of a class/element?


Fire Sin
Dark Fire - Blinds for 9 seconds -15% hit ratio
Flame trap - fire trap that burns over time
Metor Shower - Fires 3 rapid shots at once
Falling Moon - Does great damage and causes juggle effect too bad it cost insane mana to cast


My exp with my fire sin so far has been great. I honestly bielive this is th best major for pvp as the fire rate/speed/dodge boost from major really shines in pvp.  The draw back is low mana I burn threw after I first string of attacks which leaves me helpless for a few secs which is my downfall.  I picked metal as my minor and it boost my dmge way up which is great.  I do high fast damage which means I can drop you to |---| with my first string of attacks if you know what your doing comboing your attacks with stuns and juggles.  I need to work on my mana issue so I'm still testing maybe perhaps a mp leech ammy or something.  But in any party the main downfall is that while I do very high damage and have low mana,life and that means that every party i run with I end up being the tank regardless of priest since mobs goes after the cter with highest dmge delt to them.  But I have a high percentage of double attack rate,deadly attack,dodge (which is A MUST!) for pvp assassin as on a lucky shot I can hit for over 12k with metoer shower being lvl 61.  I say again Double attack rate is a must.  But pve it is the death of me as Liek I said I become the tank because of my high dammage outlet.



Skills

Dark fire - combined with dodge ability is great for adding a quick +35% dodge along with the already +20% dodge from fire major that makes me a hard target to stun hit ect...I like to use this as a follow up skill after running out of steem pvp as it helps me stay alive till cool down. It also cancels a skill being casted. Pve wise it literally saves me when tanking.

Fire trap - I honestly do not use this pvp wise as the burn dmge is to low to make a difference.  Maybe at higher lvls but I've yet to even see a fire scroll for this.  Its great for when you have more the 1 mob after combined with nettle and indigo flare i can mow a group of mobs down pretty fast *note* nettle loves double attack rating..

Metoer Shower - At first I didn't use this skill as it does semi-low dmge but after getting it to lvl 4 and using double attak rating gear this attack can 1 drop a monster if I get a lucky shot off and has been the core attack pvp/pve since then.  Great for hitting people when there stunned and being jugggled.  Its quick and effective..Max this

Falling moon - The skill atm cost me over 750 mp to cast which kills me when pvping...It takes literally almost half my mp.  While it is so important with pvp as it basically gives you 4 free shots when juggling.  I don't think I will be maxing this skill as it just cost so freaking much.  Maybe with a water minor it might be more effective but for now I only use it once per duel...sometimes twice depending on the situation..it takes a second to rear back and fire it and leaves you open for a cancel. the dmge is nice and the juggles is great but I'm still having mixed feelings of this skill as I get killed due to mana drian from using it to much when pvping.  But its a great stun and combined well with other stuns say golden sunlight to basically  give you the opportuniy to go threw your entire list of skills without being touched even once.  Pve wise Its basically worthless as it drains way to much slow to cool down where golden sunlight cools quick with metoer shower..


Overall I'm highly satified with the fire/metal as its a strong fast damaging build with great stun combos high dodge rate and speed for running for your life when its called for.  One thing that does suck about being a fire major is fire scrolls are so freaking hard to find and the ones you do are so overcharged....I mean 500pp for fallnig moon...c'mon tweed


and even when dueling water based characters...say jens water sin...I literally have the leisure to mess around cuz i can drop her so quickly (no offense jen   ) and I'm eager to get to my high 80s and try her earth sin out.  Also its has the advantage to all the metal cters out there since theres so many.

So if your looking for a fast high damage dealing character fire/metal is the way to go but this is only my first cter on pdo so I will be expirmenting more in the future but the sin is my fav class as I've always loved the ranged hit and run tactic characters

Royalite

I wanted to add that the spell Frostbolt doesn't seem to stay at 20% as indicated on the website.  I leveled mine to three and is at 30%.

kwan

Ask and you shall receive

Some questions to answer:
How is the class/element in pvp?
Which how would the minors affect the playing of this class/element?
How is a class/element sin in pve?
What are the pros/cons of a class/element?

Wood Sin-
Short summary of Spells:
Wood Monster Toxin- Poison effect for 15 second with a short interrupt.
Spring's Blessing- Self heal.
Poison Trap- Trap with vine bind effect.
Whipthorn- Increases HP drain.


i like to think that the wood assassin is a good all-around element/class. When fighting similar lvl players in PvP I can hold my own winning maybe around half the time. Metal will own me in a second but if I'm fighting an Earth major I don't even have to pay attention (lol divinity). Where the Wood sin really shines though is in PvE. It does equally well in solo and team situations. Even tanking for a little bit isn't out of the question with it's high HP combined with Spring's Blessing. For a minor I picked water for the slowdown effect of frostbolt. This was not a bad choice, but I'm very meh about it. On one hand, assassins are skill-heavy so water is good for keeping my MP up, but on the other water doesn't really complement the wood element. I'm starting to think that Metal or Earth would have been a better choice.

Skills:

Wood Monster Toxin: This is an alright attack. Nothing special damage wise, but it has a poison effect if you're looking for that little extra kick in addition to you're other attacks. What I mainly use this for is the short interrupt (freezes the enemy in place for a second or two). I think every level 10 skill for all sin elements can interrupt. If you time it right you can stop the enemy in the middle of an attack or keep it away from you for extra hits.

Spring's Blessing: When I first saw this skill I was really excited. I made the mistake of thinking it would save me massive amounts of cash on pots. Much to my chagrin though it doesn't really heal that much . At level 4 it still only heals 800 HP and I have upwards of 5000. Also, the cooldown is comparable to a pot. This skill won't be you're main method of healing by far. Don't dismiss this skill though, it's saved my life countless times. When you find that the cooldown of a pot is a little too long, just hit up Spring's Blessing and you've bought yourself a few extra seconds. It doesn't sound like much, but it can keep you alive long enough for your HP pots to cooldown. This can be useful if you decide to tank too. While the heavy damagers on your team are taking down the HP of the mob, it'll have a hard time wittling down yours, then BAM! 800 extra HP from spring's blessing buying the priest enough time to heal you or you enough time to use a pot.

Poison Trap: Probably the best wood sin skill in PvE, not so much in PvP. Against melee attackers this is a must. The damage is pretty low compared to bear trap but the vine bind effect is amazing. I can solo many higher level bosses thanks to this skill (as long as other mobs don't join in). Mobs are predictable and you can lead them right into you're trap, but you'll rarely use this in PvP because I find that most people are smart enough to run around the trap

Whipthorn: I really haven't used this skill that much. At level one it has an attack to recover HP +150 effect. Not really that useful but at higher levels maybe. The reason I haven't used this much is because when cast it decreases your movement speed. The description of the skill says it decreases "their" movement speed, but whenever I cast it my character runs slo-mo.

As far as pros and cons go:
+ The high Hp is a plus obviously. Stick on a Ribbon set and you have more HP than almost anyone else at you're level. Hp recovery rate is pretty good too, but it's only a little faster than everyone else's.
- Don't pick this element if you're looking for high damage. A lot of times when you're fighting a higher level or someone who just does much more damage, you have to rely on stun and run tactics. Stun them for a second, run around like a chicken with its head cut off, hope they run into you're poison trap, repeat.

Royalite

Wow thanks for the insight!

Water Sin, Fire Sin, Wood Sin...we're building quite a collection here.

Please post your opinion/experiences =)

Sabsy

Wood sin's are very average, hell you can have Saber if ya want em.
basicly metal/fire sin is your best option for everything in a sin.
Wood/earth is your best choice for pally, although metal pallys are damn tough in PvP, throw a regen pot on a wood pally and he is impossible to kill though.
Wood/water or water/wood are the strongest options for priests who SHOULD be healers and designed for that specificaly.
Mages have alot of options which can make good builds.

Royalite

Thanks for the insight Sabsy.

Although, I disagree with you on the priests.  The water suicide skill is not that helpful unless you're a wizzy with Protective Lifeforce.  The water suicide skill is too costly (bring you down to 1 hp and 1 mana hence the name suicide spell) to justify its use.

I say this b/c each priest element has is advantages and I would be careful saying one element is the strongest.

Sabsy

Not all skills are always useful the fact that water priests have mana regen is what places them amongst the best choices in priests, if the priest doesn't run out of mana the team doesn't run out of healing simple as that.

Royalite

Ever had a water sin use Rainfall with you in team?

That skill is um a lot more noticeable in terms of mana regen than the slow mana regen of the water priest buff.  Rainfall is like having an extra medium mana pot for the whole team.  The annoying thing is the water sin mana team buff will cancel out any water priest buff.  And yes I said a water sin can buff the whole team.

As an earth priest, the water priest buff helps ease the mana cost, but not fast enough.  I normally go through heals and spells faster than the water priest buff can keep up.  If the water priest suicides me..yea that would be awesome.  I'd notice a huge difference with my mana.  However, the spell last 35 seconds and a cool down timer of ten minutes making the frequency of use limited and as explain earlier the cost of all but 1 hp and 1 mana, the cost of the suicide is not worth the risk the majority of the time.

If I am looking for fast mana regen, I am going to look to a water sin over a water priest >.>

[ Last edited by  Royalite at 6-30-2008 15:10 ]

Sabsy

You realise a Water priest gets an inbuilt mana regen buff right? Chars with water get mana regen in built on their char, wood get HP regen, metal get attack boost, fire get speed increases and earth get defence increases.
Wood pally skills suck however the simple fact that they get a HP regen bonus makes all the difference, when I quit Sabsy had over 60 HP regen a second without buffs, with buffs and the regen pot he was getting like 800hp a second, thats how we finished the king of sun at the minimum level, with 3 people in team and without a priest.
Skills are not always what you should be looking for in a build a water priest has increased mana pool and increased mana regen which means the water priest will always have more mana for healing than any other priest build.

Royalite

Yes Sabsy I have a lvl 50+ Fire, Water and Earth priest.
Thanks for the debate sabsy =)
We'll just leave it with you having the opinion that water/wood are the strongest option for priest element and me believing that any priest of any element provides a team with equally desirable buffs/assists not just wood/water.

[ Last edited by  Royalite at 7-1-2008 12:57 ]

Royalite

Ok Water Sin Class Analysis Continued...

Now that I have played a Water sin to lvl 60, I have greater insight into the use of this char.

Spells:

Frostbolt - Decrease movement speed
Description on the site is wrong.  The site says that the movement speed is decreased by 20% no matter what level of frostbolt you have.
http://pdo.enjoymmo.com/html/GameGuide/Skills/20071129/69_4.html
If this was true then Frostbolt would really suck in comparison to the other sin spells.  But Good News!  The movement speed is increase by 5% as the skill is leveled.  When Frostbolt is fixed (meaning fully leveled to 7), it will decrease movement speed by 55%.  So I am holding out hope for Frostbolt still being a good spell.  Currently I have it Lvl 4 and honestly disappointed as I can't tell a difference with 35% decrease in movement speed.  I am hoping that 55% though will make a larger difference.  I'll let you know!

DragonTail - Stop enemies from moving
So far this spell is a gem and not many people even when they have the spell realize its full potential.  When I first got it, I casted it and figured it did nothing.  I continue to get whispers from water sins, asking what this spell is about.  So let me explain in more detail.  DragonTail prevents a target from moving, but doesn't prevent the target from attacking.  So if you cast DragonTail and remain within attacking range of the target, the water sin will still be attacked, but casting DragonTail and merely walking out of the targets attack range will prevent damage to the water sin.  It can also hit multiple targets grouped together.  DragonTail works best the closer you are to the target.  Meaning casting DragonTail from across the screen will end up with a higher chance of failure of the spell.  Further against targets with higher levels than the sin, will result in higher chances of failure.  DragonTail for one casting can fail on holding down one target but succeed in holding down another one near it.  DragonTail can last up to 12 seconds when fixed.  Against targets with melee attacks only, the water sin packs a huge advance with this spell.  One combo is to come up on the target, use DragonTail to hold it down, then use ForkedLightning to kick the target away from you and out of range of their attack.  Next prepare your traps for when the target returns to attack you.  However, as one can see the downfall of DragonTail is if the target can range attack like wizzys or other sins and this spell is probably not going to be used during fights with sins and wizzys to save on mana.  It is awesome when used as a support spell if with a team for holding down wizzy and sins for a paly to quickly take out.  In Bayer, it can be used to hold down running away enemies for a easier kill.

IceBlast - A trap with freeze
I can't really verify if the site description is wrong and if the level of movement speed decrease goes up with each level.  The skill doesn't say ingame like Frostbolt does.  According to the site the duration of the spell and the decrease in movement speed are the same for each level.  I hadn't been paying much attention to this spell to know how it was performing at the different levels but I'll pay attention next level.  The freeze effect is more noticeable with the trap then with Frostbolt at the current levels I have, which is Lvl 3.

Rainfall - Mana gain
I was the most excited about this spell and I hoped it held a lot of promise.  Right of the bat the site description was wrong about the mana cost of the spell so I was hoping this spell still could hold a lot of benefits with increasing levels.  I was very disappointed.  I have only leveled the spell to 3 but currently all the previous levels displayed the same pattern.  The cost of the mana gain is the same as the increase plus 20%.  Let me go into more detail so you can understand better what I am talking about.
Lvl 1: Recover MP for the whole team, MP+20%, Extra +210 MP, MP cost -210
Lvl 2: Recover MP for the whole team, MP+20%, Extra +230 MP, MP cost -230
Lvl 3: Recover MP for the whole team, MP+20%, Extra +250 MP, MP cost -250
So as you can see the cost of the casting matches the mana regain, it cancels each other out.  All a water sin gets is 20% and leveling the spell up means that a sin will continue to get 20%.  The only ones to really benefit from leveling this spell are the water sins teammates.  But there might be a negative effect to leveling this spell...
Thinking:
Lvl 1 Rainfall
MP Lvl of Water Sin..........1000
MP Cost of RainFall.........210
MP Lvl of Water Sin..........790
20% of Current MP Lvl.....158
After 20% MP Lvl................948
After +210 MP Regain.......1158

Lvl 3 Rainfall
MP Lvl of Water Sin..........1000
MP Cost of RainFall.........250
MP Lvl of Water Sin..........750
20% of Current MP Lvl.....150
After 20% MP Lvl................900
After +210 MP Regain.......1150
Level 3 RainFall give 8 less mana then before.

This is speculation but depending on which comes first in the calculation upgrading Rainfall will either cancel out to just 20% for each level or could end up decreasing mana regain for the water sin when leveled.  I doubt the latter is true but I'll verify ingame what is happening later on.  I'd doubt the game developer meant to have leveling a skill decrease its abilities.  However, I find the whole thing discouraging b/c even the main supporting class of priests, their support spells still end up benefiting the priest as well, not just solely the team.  For example when a water priest levels restore magic, the priest also receives an increase as well.  The same increase as the other team members, making the effort a priest puts into fixing restore magic worth it for the priest and the teammates.  Lvling Rainfall on the other hand results in a benefit solely to the water sins team mates.  So a lot of water sins are going to find themselves not bothering with this spell and I don't blame them.  Plus not many people know what Rainfall does and still charge a lot of money/pp for it in the market since it is a lvl 45 spell.  So my suggestion is save money/pp and time and don't bother leveling the spell unless you're really bored.  I, myself, am going to level it in the vain hope that it somehow changes in the end levels but I am not that optimistic.  On top of that I am sure this is not going to be the first spell I fix, as I am more hopeful about Frostbolt and DragonTail.

In conclusion, the water sin in my mind continues to be a support class fighter but still doesn't have as of yet the power, damage and of the other classes and Metal and Earth seems to still be the more versatile classes for sins.  I think others will love having the benefits that a water sin can offer the team and many have said how they love Rainfall and DragonTail that a water sin can bring to the table.  In pvp, the water sin I think really needs the metal minor to be able to hold ground and have a one on one pvp advantage.  Against melees a water sin is going to have the advantage but against the range attacks a water sins is going to struggle.  If a water sin uses its advantage over fire then every fire paly in game is going to hate water sins.

Let me know your thoughts and if you can contribute to the water sin discussion please do!

Or if you have another class analysis to do, please share with us!